Jay Papasan:
So, this week, we’re tackling ADHD in The ONE Thing. How do we achieve, kind of, our optimal approach to productivity if we have ADHD? And our guest this week is my friend, Tyler Elstrom. Gary and I like to look around the world, and we know that there are lots of people who are students of their game and a few that are students of the game. And Tyler is the latter. Besides his 10,000 hours of coaching people, many of whom were trying to struggle through their challenges with ADHD to get to their superpowers with ADHD, he’s also deeply studied because he also has it and other diagnoses that you’ll hear him share.
So, he is a student of the game of productivity, especially around the idea of ADHD and business performance. So, it’s a very illustrative episode where we go in deep. We talk about the nature of ADHD, what’s actually happening in our brains, what’s happening in our emotions. Like, did you know that by age eight, a child with ADHD will have heard 20,000 more negative message than the average child? It’s really kind of crazy what’s going on.
I’ve got lots of them in my family. I’m probably one myself. And Tyler and I explore five different strategies that you can take to, kind of, live The ONE Thing at a high level but harness your ADHD rather than fight it.
I’m Jay Papasan and this is The ONE Thing, your weekly guide to the simple steps that lead to extraordinary results.
Tyler, I’m so excited to finally get you on The ONE Thing podcast.
Tyler Elstrom:
Thank you so much for using your platform for this and your support and enthusiasm. And yeah, this is gonna be an awesome, awesome podcast.
Jay Papasan:
I’ve shared with you, I’ve got a whole family full of people in the ADHD community. We work in an industry that appears to be chock full of them as well. And I just think entrepreneurs, in general, we have a maybe a disproportionate population of people attracted to entrepreneurialism that get the benefit. I’m not gonna say the handicap or anything.
We taught a class called the ADHD Advantage, and I do believe it’s an advantage if we can learn how to harness it. And that’s one of your absolute strength zones. You’ve been coaching and teaching around this for so long. To kick it off, would you just, for those who may not be informed, like when we talk about ADHD, what are we really talking about in our brains?
Tyler Elstrom:
There’s still so much new research about ADHD. What we do know for sure is that there’s four parts of the brain that actually form differently in utero, and about 90% is genetic. So, there’s a 50% chance you have it if one of your parents does, or a 50% chance your kid is gonna have it if you have it. And it’s also a difference in regulation of different neurochemicals like dopamine and norepinephrine and serotonin, and how those are regulated throughout the day. And it’s a difference in how our brain functions.
Jay Papasan:
So, those chemicals in our brains, like I don’t know what all of them do. Like dopamine is the only one, like I know dopamine’s a reward. So, a lot of times, it’s used… like, that’s why I get stuck on Instagram too long because there’s some reward system they’ve tapped into that keeps my attention on a primitive level. Is the dopamine the main one we need to focus on for this conversation, or are those other ones ones that we should talk about too?
Tyler Elstrom:
I mean, for the most part, in the research I’ve done, dopamine is one of the main players. Norepinephrine would be next in line. And really, what my intention was to talk about today is dopamine, because when you figure out how to regulate that and work with your brain, that’s the chemical that says, hey, I’m going to do this or I’m not going to do it, I’m going to stay focused or not, I’m gonna regulate my emotions, I’m sad, I’ve got energy or I’m tired. And once you figure out how to do that with an ADHD brain, because we don’t learn that, then you can unlock a whole different level in whatever business or industry you’re in.
Jay Papasan:
Okay, I love that. And I like the term, and you can tell me if it’s the right one, like neurodivergent, right? There’s the common, and then there’s the kind of divergent path, and there’s a reason we’re not taught because if the majority of the population isn’t dealing with this, like they’re kind of teaching to the fat middle. And the educationists, no matter how special they can be, sometimes don’t always get the attention that they need. So-
Tyler Elstrom:
Absolutely.
Jay Papasan:
… if we identify or someone we know, like I’ll ask you one more question before we dive into some of the really practical stuff. If someone you’re talking to is like, look, “I’m honest, I don’t actually really know what ADHD is,” how would you explain it simply?
Tyler Elstrom:
I think a great way is neurodivergent, it means like our brain functions differently. And they’ve even looked at brain scans and our brain responds differently to stimulus than a non-ADHD brain. So, I would say it’s a difference in focus and attention and how the brain itself regulates.
Jay Papasan:
Okay, that makes sense to me. What I know from working with my sons is, like, there’s some of the executive function. Like, I see it often with how my kids, and sometimes myself, I’ve shared with you, I’m 55 years old, never formally diagnosed, but my wife is pretty sure that our kids got it from me, not her, but you look up and it’s how we shift our attention from one thing to another, our ability to start things. It shows up in a lot of ways, and some of the ways you’ve helped me educate, I didn’t know some of the emotional stuff that happens too. So, just in case, I mean, I know the initials get thrown around all the time.
Tyler Elstrom:
And there’s stigma around it too. People think it’s just about focus, and there’s so many other layers to it. It’s, how long can you focus? It’s, can you pay attention or not? It’s also, we can go from chronically under-stimulated or bored to overstimulated and anxious or overwhelmed multiple times throughout the day. And then, our emotions, we can have really big emotions or we can have trouble identifying our emotions. That’s called alopstemia. That’s something that some of us can experience. And then, yeah, starting, stopping, organizing, prioritizing, planning. I mean, you name it, it really is a different structure.
Jay Papasan:
And all of those things, I’ll remind, this is The ONE Thing podcast, like a lot of people tune in to understand how to prioritize and be more productive. We also talk about purpose, but like planning, starting, stopping, all of those are words that have an impact on how productive we can be. And I would argue, if you know how to manage your particular operational style, there are some ways that we can look at how you approach your work to give you an actual advantage.
Tyler Elstrom:
Looking into this, because I’m a nerd and I love reading medical papers and things like that, and so let’s start with a non-ADHD brain. So, a non-ADHD brain, there’s some kind of stimulus introduced, where do you want motivation for it? Whether it’s someone else or it’s something you want to do. And what happens is the brain starts producing dopamine, and it sends it to the prefrontal cortex, that first part of our brain in the front, and when there’s a surplus, because it’s the happy chemical, it’s the doing chemical, the brain says, “Hey, here’s a bunch of dopamine. And if you go do this thing, I’m going to give you more, and I’m going to steadily release it as you do the task. And once it’s completed, I’m going to give you more.” And you say, “Okay, great.” And you go do the task and you get dopamine as you start it, and as you do it, and then you finish it and you feel great and then you go to the next thing, right?
Jay Papasan:
That’s a neurotypical mind.
Tyler Elstrom:
A neurotypical, a non-ADHD brain. Now, studies show and researchers show the same stimulus for an ADHD brain, what happens is our dopamine is regulated differently. And so, here’s this external stimulus, and the brain sends some dopamine, in a lot of cases, not a surplus to the frontal lobe. It’s less typically than what we’re going to talk about. There’s five categories where this doesn’t apply and that’s what we’re going to spend the rest of the podcast on, where you can lean into those.
So, it typically sends less than you need. So, you don’t have a surplus. So, there’s not this huge surplus of dopamine that says, “Hey, do more.” And so, sometimes, it’s like you just can’t get started. You feel paralyzed because there’s no fuel. There’s no fuel or you only have a little bit of fuel or you’re running on fumes. And then, sometimes, you start the task, and then it’s like, “Oh, shoot. Sorry, here it is, I forgot.” Or you start doing it, and you just don’t get a lot, or it’s hard to focus, or there’s just a little bit, or you finish the task, but you don’t get the dopamine at the end.
Jay Papasan:
That’s how we… I mean, train ourselves, that’s how we train our pets. Like, we get reward. It’s reward systems. So, bit at the end is really important.
Tyler Elstrom:
Right. And studies show that we don’t get the same amount of dopamine after completing a task. We don’t. And it’s fuel. It’s not discipline. This is such a big thing for a lot of us because there’s so much shame if you haven’t figured out how to harness this because, then, it’s like you’re doing really well, there’s a lot of shame of, like, “I’m not disciplined. I need more willpower. I need to try harder,” all this stuff. And if you’re around people who don’t have ADHD and they think, “Hey, here’s what I did. Just try harder or here’s a consequence or here’s a reward.” And you’re getting that your whole life as a kid, but nobody knows that you actually don’t have the fuel to go and move forward. You start to form opinions about yourself, right?
Jay Papasan:
You just got into, like, a really important topic.
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah, right?
Jay Papasan:
Because you’ve shared with me that kids who grow up with ADHD get far more disapproval from the adults in their life. And the way I hear it is a lot of “you should.” You should have started earlier. You should be doing this. A lot of shoulding on people. And should is almost always a shame-based statement. It creates stress and anxiety. And whoever’s hearing it, if you’re saying it to yourself, because I know I’ve seen my kids, I try to break it out, I’ve done it to myself, I should have started sooner. I, my own internal monologue, I can be shitting all over myself.
And so, there is, like, an emotional component. If you haven’t figured this out, and you haven’t kind of figured out how you can work with it instead of fighting it because there is an advantage once you learn some of the techniques you’re going to share. I believe there’s a real advantage.
Tyler Elstrom:
Oh, yeah.
Jay Papasan:
Let’s acknowledge that. So a lot of people, you may have spent, you’re listening to this, and this is resonating because maybe you haven’t quite understood exactly what’s going on. You don’t know why it is that you can’t start things or finish things, and you feel like you’re failing, you feel like you’re failing other people, and people are making you feel that way, let’s get past that as much as we can today.
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah, and you’re right, right? Studies show that we get 20,000 negative messages about our behavior by the age of eight. So, 20,000 more as a kid – you, me, anyone who’s listening, or if you’re listening for your kids, or your family, or your spouse – we got 20,000 more, “Hey, why are you late? Why did you forget this? Why can’t you sit still? Why can’t you focus? Why did you forget your mom’s birthday? Why did you… you know, you only wanna do what you wanna do.” We got that 20,000 more times by the age of eight.
And so, for a lot of us, especially if you’re in older generations, we didn’t get diagnosed and there wasn’t a name for it and you just think something’s wrong with you, or you’re lazy, or you’re a procrastinator. That’s why people say, “Well, why the label for ADHD?” Well, if you don’t have that label, what you have is lazy, procrastinator, forgetful, lack of discipline. And so, that’s why the label is just this beautiful release of shame for so many people. And that’s why it’s important.
Jay Papasan:
There we go. And you always use we, right? I’ve seen you facilitate in person and online, you create a space where everybody can take their mask off. I think it’s the language you use. Let’s just remove our masks. Let’s be ourselves. If you need to get up and move around, right? You give people space to tap into the things they need to do to be present and participate. So, just kudos to you.
Tyler Elstrom:
Thank you. It’s partly selfish too because I felt alone my whole life. I mean, we know that I co-built a team in the top 100 in the world for Keller Williams and I had imposter syndrome. And it didn’t matter how high our rankings were, I felt like I was the only one in the room. And now there’s a whole community, and it’s healing for me too to be a part of it. I feel blessed.
Jay Papasan:
I love that. Well, let’s dive into INCUP. What’s the I stand for?
Tyler Elstrom:
We go back to that analogy of the brain where there’s not enough dopamine. When we get into the acronym INCUP, there’s a surplus and we can go longer and stay focused more than anyone else who doesn’t have ADHD. And that’s the genius zone. So, INCUP stands for Interesting, New, Challenging, Urgent, and Passion. So, if something is interesting, new, challenging, urgent, or a passion of yours, you’re actually going to get a huge surplus of dopamine more than anybody else without ADHD, and you’re gonna be able to lock on.
And if you’ve experienced this, it’s four hours later, you forgot to drink water, you forgot you’re hungry, you don’t even know what time it is, and you’ve been in this zone, because we see it in time differently, too. And that’s where the magic is, that’s where the advantage is, is living in that zone. And it’s fun.
Jay Papasan:
In my research, when we were writing The ONE Thing book, I went down the rabbit hole by a guy named Mihály Csíkszentmihályi but he has came up with the term flow. And flow is what happens when people are in the zone, right? When you see, is it Stephen Curry, the basketball player, am I getting that right? Like he just can’t miss his threes. Like he is absolutely in the zone.
And some of that overlaps these characteristics, which I thought was very interesting. It’s gamified, it’s operating at the edge of your abilities, and people experience it most while pursuing their hobbies and actually their work. That was the thing that shocked me. And people are happiest when they’re in that state. And I’ve observed my two kids, my wife has observed me, that when we get there, we can usually stay there for longer than most other people.
Tyler Elstrom:
Oh yeah.
Jay Papasan:
And that’s a superpower.
Tyler Elstrom:
It’s absolutely a superpower. And what you’ll find is, when you look at a lot of the traits of ADHD, and I use the word traits intentionally instead of symptoms, even the ones that feel harder, there’s a silver lining. So, one of those things that gets us in the zone is what’s called time blindness. So, they show that we, our ADHD brains, gauge time differently and statistically we have more trouble gauging how long it’s been or how long something’s going to take. We estimate it incorrectly.
However, we can also get in this flow zone that other people can’t access because it’s almost like time doesn’t exist. And we’re super present. And so, you’ll find that with a lot of the traits, there’s a silver lining to the other side that isn’t always recognized in the way our current society is set up.
Jay Papasan:
Pro hack for anybody that that describes them. I’ve got an Apple Watch, maybe your watch does it too, but I just push on the button and I say, “Set a timer for blank minutes.”
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah.
Jay Papasan:
And regardless of whether I know what time it is, my wrist will start vibrating when it’s time for me to shift my attention. I use it 15 times a day.
Tyler Elstrom:
Smart.
Jay Papasan:
Easy way to create a simple cue for me. So I’m just diving in with you here. Let’s go into the acronym.
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah.
Jay Papasan:
And interesting is the first one. So, does it have to already be interesting? Can we make it interesting? How does that work?
Tyler Elstrom:
That’s a great question. So the first thing I would say when I’m coaching entrepreneurs, and this is what’s helpful, is first, is there a way to shift it where it is interesting? Where instead of you having to make it interesting, do you like what you’re doing? Is it fascinating? Is it a topic that you’re interested in?
Now, if you can’t do that, let’s say you have to do it a very set way, there’s no way to shift it, then how can you make it interesting? And then yes, you might do some different things to do that. You might look at it a different way. You might incorporate different things into how you’re doing it. And you might change it up, change the time you do it, there’s a lot of different ways to do that, or tie it to something, rotate where you make your calls from, I mean, whatever you’re doing, make it more interesting if you can’t change the subject itself.
Jay Papasan:
I think that’s where your curiosity can tap into it. If you can step back and remove the work label, a lot of what we do, like if you look at it through the right prism, like you can engage your curiosity and say, “Yeah, that’s work, but I’m also going to learn a lot about, I don’t know, building covered bridges this weekend.” And you can kind of try to find angles on the work, like, “Oh, I have always been interested in architecture. It’s not just me doing a summer job for my grandpa.” And so, sometimes, you know, I like to lean on my coach or my spouse sometimes to help give me that perspective. But reminding ourselves that there is an aspect that we are interested in might be a good strategy.
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah. And Albert Einstein had ADHD. There’s so many people who have changed our world. So, Albert Einstein, smartest person to ever live, and he always talked about his hunger for curiosity. And look what happened because of that. How he found so much interest in so many things that other people passed over. That’s a great example.
Jay Papasan:
Well, you know, curiosity is his superpower, right? My friend Jenny Wood in her book, she calls it be nosy.
Tyler Elstrom:
I love that. I’m going to add that to my presentation now. Be nosy.
Jay Papasan:
Be nosy. Yeah. Like if you really love the way someone else is performing, be nosy. How do they run the play? Do they have a model they’re following that you’re not? And instead of being jealous, just get curious. So, like, that idea of being curious, being nosy, we might surprise ourselves. So, there’s a lot right in front of us to learn from what we’re doing. So, I would imagine, especially for the younger people in our lives, because I know it’s like they think that’s a kind of a binary, either I’m interested in it or I’m not, maybe we can find ways to fool ourselves. If it’s not interesting, there’s this new. How do we make it feel new or like, how does that work?
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah And a great one I’ll kind of tie into time blocking at the same time because… and we’ve talked about that making it new is rotating how you’re doing things. I mean, sometimes as an entrepreneur or business owner, you’ve got to do this stuff every day. It’s just part of it, right? With time blocking, you might have three different schedules and you do one. And when it gets stale, instead of beating yourself up and trying harder and thinking it’s discipline, and then you’ve been trying a certain way of time blocking for two years and it didn’t work, maybe you have plan one, two and three.
And plan one, you get up at 6am and work out. And then, you have lunch at a certain time. And then plan two, when that gets really stale, you rotate to the second one and you sleep in that one and you work out at your lunch hour. And then, plan three, you work out in the evening and you do emails a different time.
So, when one thing that happens, too, I’ve seen with ADHD entrepreneurs that get stuck, and then do way better is instead of resisting and putting all this, like, force on themselves and getting really harsh, they go with the flow and they hit the same objective and they might change how they do it. So, they’re staying consistent with the objective but not the exact rigid way of doing it. And so, allowing structure with some flexibility and change is gonna be really helpful.
Jay Papasan:
No, I love that. So much of what we teach in The ONE Thing is like, figure out what your one thing is and time block it. And then just do it. Hey, you should, that word, you should just do it. Do it at 9 a.m. And if rigid structures don’t work for you, if you’ve got something that’s keeping you from starting, like when you were walking me through like a workout, like you know that you have to get a certain amount of movement in every week. You’ve got goals around it. But what you’re doing is you’re trading a rigid structure for positive choices.
So, today, I don’t feel like going to the gym, but I do feel like going for a long hike outdoors. You know what? Maybe I’m not gonna be an Olympic lifter with that strategy, but I can be healthy. I can get the exercise in. I’m offering myself positive choices and the one that feels fresh and new that day, I’m gonna follow versus feeling like I have to adhere to some sort of rigid structure. Does that feel like a good summation of that?
Tyler Elstrom:
It’s so great. And a lot of us go for the harshness, and here’s why. So, harshness and stress creates cortisol. And do you know what cortisol creates? Dopamine. So, we can get addicted to beating ourselves up, and then it creates this vicious cycle where it drains us, because we have emotion regulation issues sometimes, right? So, then we’re trying to not feel terrible when we’ve used stress to force ourselves to do something. And then, eventually, we get so tired that we need more and more cortisol and more and more beating ourselves up until we burn out and have to take a sabbatical.
And so what you said, I love the term positive choices is give yourself different choices. Like a kid that doesn’t want to eat their vegetables, “Well, do you want broccoli, carrots, or cabbage tonight?” instead of, “You eat this broccoli or you don’t get to eat anything, and you go to your room crying.” That’s not a way to live.
Jay Papasan:
When my youngest was really young, like too many choices shut him down. Like he really, really like more than a few choices. Like if you said, “I need you to get dressed for school,” if you think about it, there’s 15 pairs of shorts in there, there’s five pairs of pants, a bajillion pairs of socks, most of them unpaired in our child’s drawer when they were beginning, right? So he’s got a million choices and can’t decide.
And so, now, I’m bringing the pressure, and I’m probably unintentionally have figured out some along the way that maybe I’ve created cortisol that gets the dopamine, then it gets the decision. It’s unhealthy when you do it to yourself, but as a parent, like the guilt, you don’t want to do that to your kids. My wife gave me great advice, Wendy. She just said, “Why don’t you lay out three outfits before you wake him up? Just lay out three outfits and say, ‘You get to choose.'” And by limiting the choices to three choices, all of which, by the way, I was fine with. And I knew there was a chance that it might be a Frankenstein of the three, but that’s fine too. We’re going to get out, we’re going to have our shoes on, we’re going to get to school.
So, having some positive choices kind of gets us out of this trap of either having too much to decide from or a too rigid of a choice, either extreme seems like it’s really dangerous.
Tyler Elstrom:
And we can be more prone to all-or-nothing or black-and-white thinking, right? I either do this or I don’t. I’m either an Olympic lifter or I don’t work out at all. I either eat perfectly or I’m not doing my diet, right? So, that rigidity also is natural for an ADHD brain, especially if you’re on the spectrum as well. And so, practicing softening, the harshness softening, the black-and-white, all-or-nothing, it can get so much better, it can get so much more gentle yet productive and efficient. And that’s why I’m here, because I see it happen all the time and it can happen for everybody listening too.
Jay Papasan:
Well, let’s take a quick break. Everybody’s got a lot to chew on right now. We’ll take a quick break, and we’ll come back on the other side, and we’ll wrap up new, which is the second part of this five-part system.
Okay, welcome back everybody. We’re talking about making things new. And so, gosh, we’ve kind of gone down the rabbit hole in different things. But I can also remember talking about when you’ve got work to do, think about knowledge workers, we’re at a desk. You were sharing with me strategies like, if you didn’t want to do it in your office, like you have flexibility, can you do it like with music? Can you go to a cafe? Like what are some really small, subtle things that we can do to provide choices? Again, those positive choices versus rigid structure so we can get into the groove and stay there.
Tyler Elstrom:
I love what you said about the three choices and the overwhelm, because that can happen to us too. And so, even thinking the night before you get into it, like “Tomorrow, I’m gonna do this task and I can do it at a coffee shop, I can do it from home, or I can go into the office. And then, I can choose tomorrow in the moment of how I feel,” because it might be that we feel overstimulated and home is great. And if we’ve chosen the office, and that’s too much, and we force ourselves, we don’t get as much work done, you know.
And I love the coffee shop. Some people say, “Well, if I go to a coffee shop, I’m going to buy a $7 coffee and that’s spending a lot of money.” It’s like, well, if you get three hours of work done, isn’t that worth $7? I’ll pay $7 all day to have three hours of focus because that energy and that synergy of people around and the newness, I mean, try and do coffee shop every day if you need that much newness. It’s worth it. Think of the ROI on that $7 for coffee.
Jay Papasan:
Yeah. There’s a great research I read about the top mathematicians. I’m reading about singular focus, and I kind of have a bias. I’m looking for examples. And here’s research that was exactly the opposite. The people who won the biggest prizes in mathematics, by and large, they often were usually working two or three problems at a time. And what happened is, like, when you start reading through it is, they were having a couple things in the background, and then they would have one in the forefront, but they would wake up, and they’d be like, “I’m not inspired to work on that. I’m not feeling inspired to work on that. Oh, I am inspired to work on this.”
And they tended to rotate their focus between a limited number of big challenges. And every day, they would probably have the ability to make a major insight or major progress on one and the other two might be at a standstill. But if they just tried to beat their head against the wall, instead of, like, trying to blow through the doors, right? I’m going to just ram the door so hard it opens up, it’s like, you know, there’s three doors here. One of them is actually unlocked most of the time. You just don’t know which one every day.
Tyler Elstrom:
That’s great. And if we give ourselves too much, we can overthink. They’ve shown we have ten times amount of thoughts as someone with without ADHD. So, isn’t that amazing? Well, think about entrepreneur. Oh my gosh. Less dopamine, we’re great under pressure, which we’ll talk about in a second. And so, if you give yourself too many options, what can happen is you get paralyzed. So, it’s like a computer with way too many tabs open and the computer just shuts down. So, that’s another thing is, again, structure without too much rigidity, yet having structure is that perfect balance.
Jay Papasan:
All right. So, we’ve got Interesting. It could be something that it either is or isn’t. We gave you a few strategies for maybe trying to find your curiosity to make it so. I love new. And if I had to sum it up, it’s about give yourself choices, either about how you’re approaching work or the work that you’re choosing to do when you’re choosing to do it. By mixing it up a little bit, it’ll feel fresh and it’ll get you past some of those roadblocks. Challenging, surprisingly, like why would I want to make it more challenging?
Tyler Elstrom:
Great question. And we respond really well to challenge. And all these things create dopamine, right? And so, that’s the newness and the interesting is if you don’t switch it up, if you don’t do something new, if you don’t have some kind of challenge, what happens is there’s not enough dopamine for fuel. And so, that’s why. And so, challenging does that.
And one great example, and I’ll say the one thing, the 66 day challenge, that was a big thing for me in my career. That was over 10 years ago. And that was a big thing of doing something 66 days in a row. And I posted on the door, and I followed that, and I made a breakthrough I never broke through before. So, having a challenge having intention, we are smart, we are sharp. And if something’s boring and uninteresting, we might not do it. And yet, add something to it where somebody else is doing it with us or we’re trying to beat our own record or one thing I’ll do is set a timer for something that should take 30 minutes but I’m going to set a timer for 15 and try to do as fast as possible.
Jay Papasan:
Yeah. And like race the clock. I do that with email. Like I’ll, a few times a day, set a clock for like 20 minutes and I will go in. And the game is, like, how much can I clear out of my priority inbox in this 20-minute period. And knowing I’ve got a few batches throughout the day, I can stay pretty focused on that. You know, like I like to look at the little counter number at the beginning and the end of that process, and I get a sense of progress.
And so, challenging, this is the part that lined up the most with Mihály Csíkszentmihályi’s research. If it’s not challenging, it’s almost impossible to enter the zone. So, by making it challenging, we’re pushing ourselves to the edge of our abilities, and that’s actually where people feel the most fulfillment and happiness. So, I think it’s the weirdest one of all. Make it kind of hard, and you’ll be more productive, more focused, and probably happier about your work.
Tyler Elstrom:
I have yet to meet someone that isn’t a constant, like growth-oriented with ADHD. And I’ve been over 10,000 one-on-one calls, and I’m telling you, every single person is motivated by this growth, always learning, always curious, and such empathy, wanting to help people, do things the right way, strong morals, high integrity. If you’re looking for the ideal entrepreneur, that’s it, it’s the ADHD.
Jay Papasan:
They make great employees too. I mean, I know that a lot of our audience is entrepreneurs, but I’ll just tell you, some of them make phenomenal employees. And it’s because of some of the very traits we’re talking about when they’re… if you can provide an environment that honors their work system in such a way that they can use these adaptive tools to get after it.
I want to pull back the challenging. You said something earlier, and one of my coworkers, brilliant man, he kind of talks about his struggles with it. And he’s like, “Man, I need to organize that closet.” And then I look up, and I’ve literally got like… I’m making blueprints and I’m gonna tear out the walls, and I’m gonna build in brand new custom shelving. And it’s this idea of like the ambition to make it just bigger and bigger and bigger until you’ve actually kind of shut yourself down.
So, how do we balance this idea of challenging without kind of turning a molehill into a mountain unnecessarily, and then shutting ourselves down? Is there like a trick there when you’re coaching people?
Tyler Elstrom:
I love that because that’s so true. And it’s not the first time I’ve heard someone like, “Oh, I’m going to switch out the doorknobs on the kitchen,” then they run out the entire thing. And so, that is awareness, I would say. And that’s why like having a coach, I know The ONE Thing has some great coaches or having someone that can kind of keep you in check because we can also over-commit. We have a big vision and we can think all or nothing, which is a benefit to think in extremes. That’s where big vision happens and we go all out. So, if that’s a pattern for you, if you’ve done that, having that awareness and being and knowledge is really helpful on that.
And then, also, finishing what that first task is. So, if you have that, it’s like, “Okay, I can do that with the closet and I’ve got to do this part first,” or “I’ll put that on the list. Let me sit with it for a day or two before I take it to the next level.” So, some of that’s just noticing a pattern and pulling it back, I would say.
Jay Papasan:
Yeah, great. Yes, I’m going to turn this closet into a palace. But the first step today is I’m just going to throw out all the jeans that don’t fit.
Tyler Elstrom:
Because I’ll tell you what happens. You will go for three or four hours, and then we have trouble with the time blindness gauging how long something takes, so we usually estimate it’s going to take half the time that it actually takes. And so, you’ve pulled everything out, it’s all over the place, you might have ran out a little bit, and it’s all sitting there. And then, all of a sudden the dopamine just says, “Oh, I’m done.” And so you have no motivation. And then, it sits there for weeks, months, and you’re going to get to it. It’s a project. And then, you feel shame and you feel embarrassed but you can’t get the dopamine because you already did the fun part, the big vision planning and all that stuff. And now, you got all the dopamine and there’s not a lot of dopamine and slow, tedious rebuilding. And then, it’s just sitting there.
Jay Papasan:
How do you get me out of that cycle? How do I get the first step to breaking that?
Tyler Elstrom:
And if we can touch on the next letter ’cause I would integrate that into the situation.
Jay Papasan:
Did I unintentionally move it?
Tyler Elstrom:
You did.
Jay Papasan:
Oh my gosh. Okay. Let’s go to the number four. Urgent.
Tyler Elstrom:
I’m like that too, you know, I’ll start cleaning out a closet, and then I’ll pull all the pictures out. I’m going to do a scrapbook. I’m going to do a gift or I’m going to frame them all or I’m going to… absolutely.
And so, the next one in INCUP is urgent. This is such a key one. And what I’m gonna start with is urgency because it creates dopamine, right? It’s what’s called body doubling. And basically it’s having someone else there or watching creates urgency, it creates dopamine.
So, an example of this is, let’s say I’ve just struggled so much to clean the kitchen. And I sat on the couch, and I don’t have dopamine, I’m beating myself up. It looks like I’m on my phone, but really I’m trying to get the motivation. And it’s like, I can’t do it. And then all of a sudden, one of my friends says, “Hey, I’m actually in the neighborhood, I’m gonna drop by and I brought some food if you wanna eat together. Is it okay if I come in 30 minutes?” And I say, “Oh yes, of course.” And then what happens? Dopamine and oh my gosh, the friend is coming and all of a sudden I can clean the kitchen and I’ve got the dopamine.
Or another example is I have a closet I wanna clean out. Not renovate, just clean out or an office. And then my spouse, my friend, coworker sits with me and they’re not doing it. We’re just talking. All of a sudden, I can do it because it anchors the moment and it creates that urgency.
So, what I would say is if I were you, maybe pull Wendy in or pull a friend in or pull your kids and say, “I want to hear about your day.” And then, every day, they come in and sit with you for 15 minutes and tell you about their day, and you do 15 minutes on it or something. So, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity, right? And I’m not calling you insane, Jay. We’ve all done this, and this is a key thing because some of us try discipline or we think one day we’re gonna be motivated to do it, and that’s not the thing. We want to try a different approach because that’s going to give different results.
So, if you’re feeling a lot of resistance around something, switch it up. And so, yeah, I would say practice body doubling or something that creates dopamine like playing music or a podcast you like. You do it. And this is kind of urgency, newness, interesting, all in one. Maybe there’s a podcast like this one. You want to listen to this again and you say, “Okay, I’m going to do this for just the remainder of this podcast.” And once it’s done, I’m done. And then, you only get to listen to your favorite podcast when you do the office.
Jay Papasan:
It’s got a deadline, which is part of the urgent definition. And I’m thinking about the parents out there. I’ve watched my wife do this really well. And it’ll be like, “Have you registered for classes? Have you registered for classes?” “Hey, after dinner, I’m gonna sit and let’s do it together.” And she’s actually not doing anything, but she is being present and it’s not feeling like, “And you’ll do it or you can’t go to your room.” It’s none of that. It’s just like, “Let’s do it together.”
So, I think, if we can offer in a way that can be accepted to be there, if you’re describing your kids like I’m describing mine, then yeah, then do that. And if you’re the person who needs the help, find that person that you don’t really care if they see your messy kitchen. You don’t really care if they see your messy rooms. Like, “Hey, you wanna come over and hang out? I gotta get some work done. If you can kind of help me through this, we’ll go get some barbecue.” Whatever that is, find a way to make that feel okay. I like the idea of body doubling. It’s just really having a peer partner.
Tyler Elstrom:
And you can do it over Zoom. I have a group, we do body doubling over Zoom. The other thing, if you do have kids, tell them you’re going to take them for ice cream if your office is done by a certain date and I bet they’re gonna bother you more than anybody else and create some pressure. So, there’s all kinds of ways that you can do this ahead of time. It could be a reward as well, like a coach, accountability buddy, set a timer. I mean, there’s all kinds of stuff. And we need other people. We just do, and it helps. Other people wanna help us. They wanna be there. It feels good to help somebody. So, ask for help.
Jay Papasan:
So, that’s what makes the communities that you’ve built around this community so special and you get to experience and be a part of it every day. We are gonna run out of time though, and there’s people here’s like, “Hey, I’m almost to work. I want to hear what the fifth letter is.” So, we’ve got interesting, new, challenging, urgent. The last one is passion.
Tyler Elstrom:
Passion. Oh my. This is everything. Tie your business, tie your lead generation, tie your work to passion, and you will not be starving for dopamine. And that’s where we can get lost in something that we love. I could go for another three hours on this because I never get tired of talking about ADHD because it’s a passion, you know? So, what is your joy zone? What is your sweet spot? And tie your business, tie everything you can into that, and your life will get so much easier.
Jay Papasan:
I distinguish between interesting to me, I’m curious, I’m intellectually interested in that. I wanna know how that works. Passion is more from the heart. This is more mission, purpose, that sort of thing. Is that a correct way to kind of… if I was gonna put them as bookends for this?
Tyler Elstrom:
That’s a great way to do it. And a lot of us who are neurodivergent have what we call our special interests. So, we have certain things that we just can’t get enough of. And it’s actually really beneficial to focus on those to get out of burnout. So, if you have… and this is a consistent thing over time that you love. Like I love to build aquariums and aquascaping and things like that. I can get lost in that, creating little worlds in fish tanks. And so, that’s something that stays. It’s not a passing thing. It’s a topic.
And then, another example would be charity. We can be very entrepreneurial or very philanthropic. So, if you tie your business to a charity, oh my gosh, now you’re working to help people, not just money. And that can change the game for a lot of people as well.
Jay Papasan:
One of your passions is serving this community. You have a for-profit in there as well and that means that’s just you’ve aligned your business with your passion. But I also want to point out for those who don’t know, like you were part of the Asheville community that went through horrible times and you dedicated yourself to public service until like EMTs told you you need to go home.
Tyler Elstrom:
And then, like a week later they thought I had a blood clot in my lung. Yeah, from Hurricane Helene. And that’s the benefit, right? I could shut off the hunger and the thirst cues and went for it. It was over 300 hours, specifically with the homeless population who all their stuff was blown away in the storm. And that’s the benefit, right? That surplus of dopamine that no one can compete with where they think, “Oh my gosh, go home.” And it’s like, I just got unending dopamine because I have passion. And so, that’s a great example of tying into that.
Jay Papasan:
To recap it, interesting, like engage our curiosity. New, change it up, make it feel fresh. Give yourself positive options instead of rigid structure. And so much about productivity is about follow the model, follow the system. You know what? There’s always a menu inside of there, and we can choose some really positive things within that structure. Challenging, think big. I don’t think that’s going to be a problem for anyone, right?
Tyler Elstrom:
We’re pretty good at that.
Jay Papasan:
Do it with limits, though. Urgent, right? Surprisingly, that’s where the body doubling comes in, right? While you’re with me, I need to finish this. It’s kind of the deadline. I’m giving myself a deadline during this podcast. And so, urgent. And then, passion. Like do those things that really speak to your heart, but don’t do it for 300 hours without eating and drinking.
Tyler Elstrom:
I don’t recommend it. We can be extreme and I can be extreme. So, I learned a lot and I wouldn’t take it back, and I’ll probably need another year to rest before I do something like that again.
Jay Papasan:
Hopefully, your community never has to-
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah, no more hurricanes, please.
Jay Papasan:
No more hurricanes.
Tyler Elstrom:
Yeah.
Jay Papasan:
So we always end every episode with a challenge. What’s one thing we can challenge our listeners to do, to act on, to thank this week as a result of this podcast?
Tyler Elstrom:
This is a great one. And so, a lot of us are going to think challenging and growing for us is hitting the next goal or, you know, pushing ourselves. And what I would say, some of the biggest challenge for us with ADHD, especially us high performers or entrepreneurs, is to give ourselves grace. And so, my therapist actually taught me, it’s called the oops game. So, this is the challenge I have for everybody out there is, this week, because we’re in a neurotypical world, and there’s only 3% to 10% of the population with ADHD, the world is not necessarily built for us. So, there are times where you’re going to fall short, right? Or you’re going to miss something, or you’re going to be late, you’re going to forget something, or you might fall out of place. So, my challenge to everybody listening is to play the oops game. So, when that happens, instead of beating yourself up, you say, “Oops.”
Jay Papasan:
Oops.
Tyler Elstrom:
Oops. Right? See what that does to your life. So, if you’re late, you say, “Oops,” and you let it go, right? If you forget something, you say, “Oops,” you let it go. And that’s my challenge this week is to practice the oops game, because it will change your whole world and how you see yourself.
Jay Papasan:
Oh, I love that. I mean, we all need to give ourselves a little grace and especially like you were talking about earlier, if they’ve been playing the quarters all game where they beat themselves up to get them to do the things they need to do, that’s a wonderful way to maybe break that cycle.
Tyler Elstrom:
Absolutely. And you’ll keep pushing. We always push. Don’t be worried about being too soft on yourself or way too hard. This is a tiny, tiny correction. You’re not gonna get soft doing it.
Jay Papasan:
Tyler, thanks for doing what you do. Thanks for pouring into our ONE Thing community today. And I’m sure we’ll have you back in the future. Thanks so much.
Tyler Elstrom:
I love that. Thank you.
Jay Papasan:
Well, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. I know that when we had Tyler on our free webinar in December, we had one of the largest gatherings we’d ever seen, close to 900 people on a free webinar right before the holidays, and they were just blown away. Just created all kinds of energy around the topic because many, many entrepreneurs are dealing with ADHD and his solutions are very practical. If you’d like to find out more about Tyler and what he does and his work, you can go to ADHDtyler.com and that will link you to his Facebook groups and communities around the ADHD and performance.
Next week, we’re gonna have another solo episode. We’re looking up around us between kind of the tariff roulette and the moving interest rates and you name it, a lot of people are whispering this word recession. And is it coming, is it coming soon, or is it just around the corner? Here’s the truth. A recession is always coming. That’s why it’s called a cycle. We just don’t know when.
But I’m gonna talk a little bit about how you can become recession proof in your career and in your business. I’ve had the privilege of writing books on this with Gary Keller. We’ve also become students of the game, going from in the middle of the pack, before the Great Recession, to the clear number one after. So we can show you not just strategies for surviving, but strategies for thriving if a recession is on the way. So next week, how to become recession-proof.
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This podcast is for general informational purposes only. The views, thoughts, and opinions of the guest represent those of the guest, and not ProduKtive or Keller Williams Realty LLC and their affiliates, and should not be construed as financial, economic, legal, tax, or other advice. This podcast is provided without any warranty or guarantee of its accuracy, completeness, timeliness, or results from using the information.
