425. The Art of Modern Leadership with Dr. Kirstin Ferguson

Nikki Miller:

Hey everyone, and welcome back to The ONE Thing podcast. I'm Nikki Miller.

Chris Dixon:

And I'm Chris Dixon.

Nikki Miller:

And today, we have the pleasure of talking to Dr. Kirstin Ferguson. She is an award-winning author, columnist, and company director. She was named by Thinkers50 as one of the world's top 30 thinkers to watch in her career. Includes three decades of leadership experience, including a previous appointment by the Australian Prime Minister as acting chair and deputy chair of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Chris, this was such an interesting conversation and such a unique and light, but also simple and actionable perspective on leadership. I loved this conversation with Kirstin.

Chris Dixon:

Yeah. So many great things to take away and think about or be reminded of when you're thinking about how you can be a better leader. And I love what she shares about the perspective of everyone is a leader in some capacity. And I think that's so true. Like, how do you choose to lead from the front regardless of what your title, position, perspective, all of that. And I think that's so valuable. And she gives some really great takeaways on you can apply these different models inside of what is leadership in a modern context.

Nikki Miller:

I also love her perspective on feedback and how to measure it, how to give it, how to receive it. And to me, Chris, this really goes along with the importance of having a coach in your life, someone who can constantly give you feedback, who can really help you measure what's real, what's important, what's not, what are perspectives and changes that you should implement, what you shouldn't, and having a second set of eyes, a second set of ears, and a different perspective on how you're measuring against your goals.

Chris Dixon:

So true. And how you can win. And not just the big moments of and big opportunities of leadership, but in the small moments that really make a big difference in the long run.

Nikki Miller:

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Hi, Nikki. I'm excited to be here.

Chris Dixon:

Yeah, thanks for being here.

Nikki Miller:

I'd love to know, Kirstin, how did you come up with the concept for this book? I know you have so much leadership experience, but what led to the writing of this book?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Well, it was one of those rabbit holes that we all go down sometimes when you're watching a pretty bad movie or something and you're distracted on your phone. And I remember I was watching a Ted Talk, I think that Simon Sinek did about ten years ago, and he just briefly mentioned a moment in the Afghanistan War with Captain Will Swenson. And I was immediately intrigued. So I went and found out everything I could. And for anyone who's not aware, there's a remarkable video footage you can find on YouTube of the moment Captain Will Swenson, he's in what became known as the Battle of Ganjgal. He's 31. He's an unexpected commander. The most senior officer there was injured early.

And as he's putting one of his sergeants into a medevac helicopter, a head cam on one of the crew's helmets captures a moment which would otherwise never have been caught. And you see him give him a kiss on the cheek. And it's this tender, compassionate moment that was obviously never expected to be captured on camera. But what I took from that was Swenson in that moment demonstrated all those qualities you would expect of a leader in that situation, bravery and technical ability and command and control. But he also showed how he could be compassionate and lead with empathy and self-awareness of the impact that he was having on those around him.

And at the same time, I was looking at leaders like Jacinda Ardern or even leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who were so different on the world stage and wanted to capture what was this secret sauce. And so it was really that story of Captain Swenson that started me thinking about what it means to lead with the head and the heart.

Chris Dixon:

And I love what you say too, about the perspective that everyone's a leader and everyone has the opportunity to look at even any job or relationship they're in or opportunity as the chance to lead and do it from this perspective.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

I'm really passionate about that, Chris. I think it's been ingrained in us for centuries. And it's because of theories like the great man theory from sort of the 18th century, which said that only entitled, wealthy, powerful men were able to lead. That we sort of started to believe that over the years, because in the history books, that's all we ever heard about.

And if you think it's only in recent decades that we've really started to embrace wanting to see leaders of all kinds, but even then, it tends to be those formal leaders in our organizations who are at the top of the organization chart or that have those fancy corner offices and great titles. Whereas I believe we're all leading in our families, in our communities, and of course, at work, but maybe not a formal leadership role, but in our positions and in our responsibilities, we can lead.

And after I tell the story at the beginning of the book about Captain Swenson, I then talk about a young supermarket checkout operator that I witnessed during the pandemic, and she was having to deal with a really difficult customer. She was maybe 19 or 20, the most junior person in the organization. Yet in that moment, she dealt with this customer with more grace and respect than I perhaps could have ushered up at the same time. And there's no doubt in that moment she was leading. So I think we have leaders amongst us all the time, and it doesn't require this old-fashioned notion of having followers.

Nikki Miller:

Kirstin, I think this is so important because I think so many people hear about classes around leadership or books around leadership, and they'll say to themselves, well, I'm not a senior leader in my company. And to your point, in the book, you talk so much about how we are leading everywhere all the time in our families, in that position, in our companies. You don't have -- no one has to bestow upon you the title of a leader for you to have leadership qualities and for you to become a leader within the organization. So if you were speaking to someone who has that record playing in their head, I'm not a leader, this doesn't apply to me, what would you tell them?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Well, it's funny you should say that. There's an interview. There's a lot of interviews in the book, and there's an interview with a person who I consider a textbook leader. But when I asked them, they didn't see themselves as a leader at all. They didn't fit that classic corporate model of a leader. They work in academia and do all sorts of leading through influence and activism but didn't see themselves in that old school style of leading.

I think it's a real mindset shift when you point out that actually think about the influence and impact you're having on those around you, because we all impact everyone we come in contact with through our words we use, the choices we make, the behaviors we role model. All of that is a form of leadership. And there's no doubt, if you're a single parent at home making decisions on how to budget the family and get the kids through school and how you're going to juggle multiple jobs, you are leading in your life. You are leading that family.

And yes, the impact may only be on your small family. It might not be on the country if you're the president, but it's still the same idea. And I think we really need to make sure we remind those we lead. So if anyone listening is a formal leader and is saying, well, of course I know I'm a leader, that's great. But do the people that you lead think the same? And imagine if they all felt the same way and understood the impact that they're having.

Chris Dixon:

I mean, inspiration can come from all places and all moments. And I think in my own experience, it's not always a formal leader or an engagement in like a formal leadership moment that really inspires. And some of those smaller moments can really be where strength comes from.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Absolutely. And leadership is simply a series of moments. And I talk about that a lot in the book. The moment of the kiss on the cheek with Captain Swenson and his sergeant, it's just a brief, fleeting moment. Yet, of course, it's become infamous with his leadership on that day. And when he was asked about it years later, he said he wouldn't have even believed it had happened had it not been caught on video.

And I often ask people, when I'm doing keynotes and speaking to corporate groups to think about a moment, and maybe you guys want to do the same, about a leader that made you feel good about yourself. And it could be a parent or a teacher or someone at work, and you'll think about what it was about them that you remember as being such an influential and positive impact on your life. But now, think about that leader that you remember that really had a damaging impact on you, and they might have belittled you or ridiculed you.

I'm positive that as you think of each of those people, you'll be thinking about a moment. It will be the words they said in a meeting that really cut you down. It will be when they gave you a promotion, you didn't think you were ready for. It's always a moment. And it's easy for us to identify those moments in others, but it's much harder to recognize when we're the one inflicting or positively giving those moments to others. And I think life is so fast. We send out hundreds of emails every day. We're constantly having to deliver on KPIs. We can miss those moments. And that's something I think as modern leaders, we really need to be conscious of.

Nikki Miller:

Kirstin, I'd love for you to talk more about this, because you do in the book, and you do such a beautiful job of articulating it. And to your point, I think so often we think of leaders as these people who run huge organizations or are standing on the really big stages, and I can't think of many leaders in those scenarios in my own life that have made a huge impact. You're right. It's those small moments that you have with people who you might not have, even at the time said was in a position of leadership or were in a position of leadership, but had a profound impact on you one way or the other.

And as leaders in organizations and families and groups and communities, whatever it is, it's so challenging to slow down enough to capture those moments and to make them count when we are so busy and when life is so busy. And you talk about this sort of this notion that that leadership has been flipped on its head in the last couple of years, and that it really is about capturing these moments. What would your advice be on someone on how to actually do that? How do you slow down enough to be present in the moment to provide great leadership?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Oh my goodness. I mean, as a leader myself, if I can figure that one out, I think I'll be time to retire.

Nikki Miller:

Not enough time for that today, right?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

No, I think part of being what I describe as a modern leader is recognizing we're going to make mistakes. So, like everyone, I miss those moments. I realize I haven't thanked someone nearly enough for something that they've done or haven't been thoughtful around. The effort other people have put into something. But what I do do as soon as I recognize that that moment has been missed, is go back and try and rectify it.

And so I think it's recognizing that if we can accept the fact we're fallible and that we're going to make mistakes, that's almost a lot of the battle won. And then in those moments, you're more likely to be looking for them, and you're more likely to be doing things that you know are going to have a positive impact. But please don't beat yourself up if you don't capture them all because you're only human.

Chris Dixon:

Seems like more and more today, we feel that maybe it's social media or something socially, technology driving this, but it feels like you need to have a large audience or a large following to make a big impact. But really, you can make a big impact in a relative small way. And I think remembering to zoom in to those moments is something that we think are less inclined to do today for various reasons, but it's so important that that's where you win. You win in the really small engagements, the one-on-one conversations and can't forget that.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, I think it's very rare, in fact, to be someone who's going to have a really broad impact, the majority of us just impact our small worlds and that's important. So let's try and get that right. But I think it all comes down to this art of modern leadership, which I'm sure we're about to talk about, about being able to balance our head and our heart and being able to know what's needed and when. And it's in those small moments, if you really are able to master that art, I think you're going to have the best impact you can.

Nikki Miller:

I'd love for you to expand, Kirstin. You're right. I want to dive into the actual book itself, and you talk about these two notions of leading with the head and the heart, and that there are four attributes of both. And it was funny because when I was reading it, you realize that naturally, to me at least, correct me if I'm wrong, when I feel the best as a leader, I'm usually leading from the heart. Whereas when I think about leadership, it almost always comes from the head. So can you talk about the each of these attributes and how you can apply them and how you came up with them, most of all?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

I love your insight there, Nikki. That's actually really insightful of you. And I think that's right. I think we do feel good when we're leading with our heart, but it's not always what's needed in the moment. And leading with our head is what we've been rewarded for at school. And we get promoted on. And it's often what we're being assessed on in our performance reviews and things.

Ultimately, I think we all will feel best is when we can balance both pretty evenly and we know what's needed in each situation. So I went and did some research. I'm an adjunct professor at the Queensland University of Technology's Business School and wanted to understand that special sauce we were talking about before. And I loved this idea, and it's a metaphor we've all heard of before. It's just a very simple one. But what does it mean to lead with your head in your heart?

And so the four attributes that my research found to lead with your head, the first is curiosity. A total no brainer in my opinion. Yet terrifyingly, the research shows 92 percent of its value curiosity, but only 24 percent of us get to experience curiosity at work. So even though we all know it's really valuable, very few of us are getting to feel curious. The second attribute of leading with the head is wisdom. And that's all about decision making and gathering data and evidence and knowing what information is needed to make the best decision going forward.

The third is perspective. Now, this is probably the most important of the eight, even though I try not to have favorites, but only based on the data because it's the most highly correlated with all other attributes. And perspective is, in layman's terms, reading a room, being able to know the signals, read the signals, and understand the context and the environment you're leading in, but also being able to notice who's missing from the room. And that's incredibly important for getting diverse voices and other lived experiences. And obviously it's not just a physical room. It could be, but it's more likely your organization, your industry, wherever it is you're working in.

And the fourth is capability. And that's all about growth mindset and not only being capable at what you do but believing you're capable as well and helping build other capable leaders. So I find that those four head based attributes cover a huge amount, but they're not difficult. These are ones that a lot of people can get their head around. It's what we're comfortable in. We can see it, feel it. It's tangible. You can measure it. You can put it in a policy. It's that kind of really easy to box up skills. But it's critically important. Absolutely important.

Nikki Miller:

Before -- real quick, Kirstin. Can I ask you a question really quick before you get into heart? Because you said something earlier about curiosity, which I think was really important, I'd love to get your perspective on it. Because you said that everybody wants it, and yet so few people are actually using it or feeling like that people around them are curious. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's time?

I find that one of the things that Jay Papasan, the co-author of the book, is a mentor of mine, and he always says coming from curiosity is so important, and yet it can be hard to do when you're in a fast-moving environment because it takes time. So as opposed to saying, go do this, you did this wrong, you have to say, tell me how you came up with the plan to do it this way, which is just time consuming. It's the better way to do it. But often as leaders, we don't want to spend the time to do that. Is that what you see? Do you think that's why it doesn't come up?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yep, definitely, time is just a practical factor. The second reason to be around if you work in a bureaucracy that so many people do, there's really no space to be curious. There's a form for that. You've got to fill it in and triplicate, and you've got to go and get it co-signed by people. It's just too hard to be curious because it's, I'm assuming the DMV doesn't have much space for curiosity when you're going to go and get a license. There's a way to do it. And that's how it is. And it's always been that kind of thing.

If you work in a culture where there's no psychological safety is another issue. So if you are scared to be curious, if you're scared to ask, well, what if we did it this way? Like, what if we got rid of that application form and just did it on honor or integrity and you get shot down for that, then you're never going to be curious again. So there's lots of other reasons as well.

If you're someone who makes assumptions, it makes it much harder to be curious. So we've got personal and systemic issues that dampen down curiosity. But it's incredible that whenever I speak to groups, everyone raises their hand. It's the one attribute that scores the highest. People resonate with it, everyone loves it, and you can almost see their eyes rolling like, yeah, of course, curiosity. But when we get down to it, very few of us actually lead curious cultures.

Chris Dixon:

That's hard sometimes to think first, to understand and ask questions, but it connects to perspective too. Or do you see that? I mean, you said the importance of perspective to be able to understand the environment, who's there, who's not there. But if you're not leading with curiosity, how can you have the right perspective?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

So we'll move on to heart in a minute, but curiosity correlates most highly with humility. So if you are humble, it means you know you don't have all the answers, which means you're naturally going to be more curious because you're okay with accepting the fact you don't have all the answers. So if you're someone who genuinely thinks you're right all the time, it's going to be hard to be curious. Perspective about reading the room and seeing who's missing, that correlated most highly with empathy. And that's because you are able to try and put yourself in the shoes of others. And both of those are heart-based attributes.

And so again, it shows the model, really, it's that balance. Everything's about balance. And while there will be times when, Nikki, I completely agree, I feel the best when I'm leading with empathy and things like that. I know as a leader myself, there's plenty of opportunities or periods in my career where that wouldn't have been the right way to lead. It might have been a crisis or a situation that just taking the time to be curious in that situation might not even be appropriate. That's the art of modern leadership is knowing what's needed and when.

Chris Dixon:

I feel like early in my, more call it like formal leadership opportunities, first job as a manager, things like that, you do feel that inclination that you're supposed to have the answers, or maybe that was just my experience, but I feel like that's something that has come through actual experience was to recognize that the strength is in your team and that the skill is to bring them together for collective wisdom. And that's empowering. And it's two directional and there's just more to it. But it's hard early to recognize that and feel like that's the path.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

It is. And not knowing the answers is actually a relationship builder, not a relationship destroyer, because it builds trust. Because the bottom line is we don't have all the answers. And most people in the room know you don't actually know, even if you think that you're pretending and doing a good job.

Nikki Miller:

And if you do think you have all the answers, you're probably in trouble.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, exactly. Then you think you're the smartest person in the room, and they all have another name for you then. So it's much better to be able to say, it's not going to be every time. I think if you don't know the answer ever, that's a problem. But if there's going to be a topic where actually I've got no idea how we're going to solve this, this is something I have not experienced. But between us as a team, we've absolutely got the answer. So what's everyone else think? There is just no way that that takes away from your ability to lead.

And you're right, Chris, it's been ingrained in us for so long that those all-knowing leaders, right back to the great man all the way through the titans of industry that we have followed in the shadow of, they always like to give the impression that they had all the answers. And yet that's not the kind of leader that we need today.

Nikki Miller:

Kirstin, I interrupted you on the way to heart, and I think that it's so important to get both sides of the coin, right. I was so curious. I remember reading that one piece and I was like I got to know more about the curiosity piece. Will you jump into the attributes of leading with the heart?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, I'd love to. So the first one is humility. And we sort of touched on that before that it's really highly correlated with curiosity. And humility just means in this -- we're talking about intellectual humility in particular. And I think it's really sometimes quite misunderstood. It doesn't mean you think you're less than confident. Humility is a great term coined by Adam Grant and others, where you really understand what you don't know. You're confident about that. It doesn't make you feel less than, and you just are aware that you don't have all the answers, and you're more than happy about that. It's a matter of then seeking it out.

The next attribute of the heart is self-awareness. And that's obvious. The understanding and having insight into the impact that we're having on those around us. Again, another scary statistic somewhere in the 90s, let's say 95 percent of us think we're self-aware, only 10 to 15 percent of those we lead agree. So just think about that. Again, most of us would say, yeah, I'm self-aware. I know the impact I'm having. Virtually, no one we lead would agree, 10 to 15 percent.

Nikki Miller:

That is staggering.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

I know. Now, that is why feedback is so important. And so I go into feedback a lot in the book because you have to be calibrating how you're going. And even those of us who think we're on top of it, we're going to have blind spots. We've got biases. We think we're really good at something. And in fact, others have got a very different opinion of that. And so I think self-awareness is another one where it's easy to go, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. But I challenge you to see if you're actually doing that.

Well, the third attribute of leading with the heart is courage. And that's courage to stand up for what you believe in, even in the face of pressure not to do so. I think we hear a lot about really significant whistleblowers who bring down entire corporations. That's not really what I'm interested in or focused on. Of course, that's an example of courage, but this is much more about everyday acts of courage. And it could be taking on a promotion you don't feel ready for which all of us will have done at various points. You have that imposter syndrome and do it anyway. It might be giving feedback or receiving feedback yourself in a really meaningful way. It can be calling out someone's behavior, whatever it might be.

And the final attribute of leading with the heart is empathy. And again, we touched on that earlier around the link with perspective, but it's really being able to put yourself in the shoes of others. And again, something that seems so obvious, but for many leaders they find it hard to accept there's people that haven't had the same lived experience as them. Now, I know it seems obvious, but we do have plenty of leaders that just don't understand that their view of the world isn't the same as everyone else's. And so modern leaders understand that they probably have a very privileged, narrow view of the world, and we need to seek out other voices in order to make the best decisions we can.

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Nikki Miller:

I would encourage everyone to do it. Very informative and we'll drop the link in our show notes for those who are interested as well. And I want to go back to something, Kirstin, you just said about feedback, because I think you do talk about this in the book, and I want to expand on it because I think it's so important. Because I've come to understand being both a leader and a follower in organizations, that this is just such an art and it's really not something you're taught in the world of business.

And I always say criticism can sometimes be disguised as feedback. And so often we aren't taught how to give feedback. We also really aren't taught how to receive it. So can you talk more about feedback and on both sides of the coin, how important it is and also how to do it? Like how do we do this feedback thing?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

It is a tricky thing. I mean no one, you're right, no one teaches you how to give it or receive it. I began my career in the military and so I don't remember ever being taught about feedback. But over my career, I went into law, I then led a group of psychologists. I was the CEO of a global group of psychologists. Now, psychologists love feedback. They love giving it and giving it over and over. And the organization I ran had a true feedback culture where any -- I was the CEO. Anyone could give me feedback. It didn't matter what your role was. And so multiple times a day I would have people saying, oh, can I come and give you some feedback?

And look, I have to admit, there were times when you're thinking, oh my goodness, not again. I don't know that I can handle any more feedback, but what it taught me was A, the real value of having a true feedback culture, where people feel able to express how they feel and what's going on for them, and B, how to stay present in those really challenging conversations where you might be triggered and thinking, what are you talking about? I don't agree. Yet, you need to stay and really hear people out because it's their perception and it's valuable and you want to hear feedback again in the future.

So I think the lesson with any feedback conversation, particularly if you're a leader that needs to give feedback, and I think I spend a couple of pages in the book with an actual plan for how to have this kind of conversation, and it begins with really thinking about, well, where and when are we going to do this, and how are we going to do it. And in a hybrid working environment, it's a completely different situation now. It's not impossible, but you really need to think about how to have this conversation and what's going to be going on for that person.

But I also encourage leaders to think about what is it about the other person that might trigger you. Because often if there's a performance issue, there's something that's irritating you or bothering, you really need to look in the mirror and think what is it that this person could say that's really going to set me off and think about that well before having the meeting. And if you're feeling frustrated or stressed or your boss is putting you under pressure, try and do the meeting at a different time, because the most important quality you can go into a feedback session with is curiosity. Because obviously, you're there to give feedback, receive feedback, but be curious about what's driving it. Be genuinely curious.

So if someone wants to give you feedback and it hurts because we've all got three triggers when we hear it, I don't know how much these will resonate with you, but you might think A, you're wrong. You just don't agree with the feedback. And so then you're clouded by whatever they're saying because you don't agree. The second trigger we have is you're an idiot. So you're then clouded by the relationship that you've got with the person. It doesn't even matter how good the feedback is. You're already thinking how dare you?

But the third trigger we have is shame or embarrassment. It's all about us. Something in us is triggered. You need to recognize what those triggers are and learn to stay curious about the conversation. And my husband laughs at me when he gives me feedback on how to load the dishwasher. And I'm thinking, A, you're wrong, B, you're an idiot. And he's trying to tell me. I must admit, I'm not very good with my curiosity about why he thinks I should be loading the dishwasher in a different way in that stage, but in a work situation, I can stay curious.

And then it's all about questions. Okay, can you tell me more about that? Can you help me understand? Can you give me an example of when that's happened? I'd love to know more because it's obviously something that's bothering you. How can I work on that? So it's a very long answer, but I think if you go into it with an open mind and curiosity, it's likely to go well.

Chris Dixon:

That's so true. It's like a balancing act and creating a culture of feedback. And I can relate to the example that you gave of working with the psychologists and where it was very feedback rich and some of the challenges that come with that. Do you see an opportunity, even if you are the person who's aiming to provide feedback, to also take some ownership on like actionable walkways or like things to take away?

So I've found that in really strong feedback cultures, you'd rather default that way than the alternative, but you can end up with a lack of ownership sometimes in the providing feedback versus thinking, hey, how can I also influence change? Do you see that too?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

A hundred percent. So if you're the leader and we're talking about formal leaders now, and you're talking to someone in your team who you would like to give some feedback to, you absolutely need to leave that meeting with a clear plan for success. If that's your goal. If your goal is to move them out of the organization, and this is the first of many performance meetings and you're giving feedback, then you're probably going to have a bit of a different strategy.

But I would hope that you're giving feedback because you want them to succeed. If that's the case, then absolutely. And it would be saying to them at the end, okay, here's some ideas, get their buy in. How does this sound for you? Does this seem doable? When can we meet and talk about this again? When can you give me some feedback on how you feel it's going. Lots of questions and lots of agreement on a plan of action. But I wouldn't -- I'm an Australian. We're pretty blunt. We don't go anywhere unless we've got a plan and --

Chris Dixon:

That's been my experience.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah. I wouldn't want that person leaving in any uncertainty at all because you know they're going to go home and freak out. Basically, they're going to be thinking, oh my God, am I about to get sacked? I don't know what that meeting was for. Now, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. All she told me was that I'm not doing this well. But now what? I don't know how to do it well. Like you never ever, as a leader, want that situation.

So I would allow plenty of time in the meeting for okay, what are the next steps? What does success look like? Make it clear. So if you're not happy with what's happening now, what do you actually want it to look like? And then how are we going to get there together? And again, you've got a really different frame if you're giving the feedback to help them succeed, you genuinely want it. This is a partnership. Like how are we both going to make this better.

Chris Dixon:

Even if you're, say like managing up, right? If you're coming to a leader of yours with some feedback, like you can think of it this way too, right?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah. Now that's always tricky. It's always tricky to go feedback up. And it will depend on how psychologically safe your leader has made the situation. I have had plenty of mixed experiences, including a boss that just sat there silently and was really not interested in the feedback, and you soon realize I'm never giving you feedback again. Like I'm never even going to try. And that is the kind of culture where it's not one I want to work in, because you soon realize this isn't a place where I can speak up.

Or you might have some leaders who just genuinely the best ones just want to hear more. And they may not agree. Like I've had leaders push back and say, I understand where you're coming from. I'm really keen to, I'm so grateful you've come and given this to me, but I just want to give you a piece of information you didn't have. And then you go, oh, okay. I didn't realize that.

Now, a good leader will then say, actually, I probably could have given the team a bit more context because I can see why you've come. And then everyone leaves feeling safe and heard, and there's no destruction in that relationship. That's the perfect kind of outcome where a boss has heard your feedback, perhaps not agreed with it, told you that, but giving you the reasons. That's another powerful way to have these conversations.

Nikki Miller:

And Kirstin, how do you advise, leaders especially, who are receiving feedback, to weed through what's valuable and worth changing and what just might be a perspective to your point just now that they don't agree with? Because when you're in a high feedback environment, you can end up being a ping pong ball. Where wvery single day, you're changing based off everyone's feedback, which isn't a smart path forward either. So how are you weeding through what's valuable and should affect change and what is just a perspective that can just be a perspective?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Great question. I think that's where you need to test the feedback with some trusted voices, not the people that are just going to say you're wonderful and how terrible. Like not your girlfriend. Not someone who, or your mother who's like, no, you're perfect. That can't be correct.

Nikki Miller:

You're the best there ever was.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no way there could be anything wrong with you. You need to find those people. And we all have them that aren't going to bullshit you. Excuse the language that are actually going to say you do do that a little. I noticed when blah, blah, blah. That's when you go, okay, I didn't realize that's what I was doing. Can you tell me more about it? And they're going to be someone who's obviously just wants you to succeed.

And so I think when you get that insight, that's then gold as a leader, because it's a blind spot you didn't even know you had. And I think it's important to go back to that person in your team that's given it to you, and thank them. Like it's important to round out these conversations to show that you've heard them, that you're acting on it, that you are really grateful because you'll never get the feedback again if they think that you're someone who's angry at them or going to hold it against them. So I think if that happened to me and my friend or trusted person colleague said, actually, yeah, this spot on, we just didn't know how to tell you, I'd be really grateful to the worker or whoever's in your team that has told you that.

Nikki Miller:

Well, I think it's such a gift because I always say I, for one, would want to know if I had spinach in my teeth. Like I would want someone to tell me if I was doing something that wasn't maybe putting people at ease or was being received in a way that was counter to what I wanted to have happen. So I think it's such a gift.

And as a leader, how do you create, there's this sort of theme in in a lot of leadership right now and in cultural ecosystems around psychological safety. But I always say it's one of those esoteric things that not a lot of people teach you how to actually create. So what's your recommendation for leaders and how to create enough psychological safety in their relationships and in their culture for people to come and provide this type of feedback?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

I think if you've got a high trust, no blame culture where you genuinely believe that. So again, there's cultures we all know where the words are on the wall that say we're mutually respectful and safe to speak up and all our values. But then when someone does, it might not be you, but you just hear of someone down the corridor spoke up and oh my God, this happened --

Nikki Miller:

Off with their head.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, exactly. It might not even be true, but that's the vibe, then people aren't going to speak up. So I think as leaders it's totally on us to create those safe cultures. And if you're not receiving feedback, I'd be asking yourself why. So people in your team have views. They definitely would have a view about your leadership. It could be good, it might be terrible, but you need to be hearing it one way or the other.

And so I work with leaders, and I know there was one, in fact I use it as a case study in the book where they worked for one of the big four consulting firms and very competent partner, not new in the industry, incredibly well. But whenever they were with their team, no one ever said anything, and they assumed it was because they were so smart and wonderful and knew everything. And so they just led the way. And I'm like, ah, this is not good. Obviously, your team has views. They're sitting there. They're not feeling able to speak up because you do all the talking and you're not making it safe for them to do so.

And so they ended up experimenting, and we sort of coached through how they'd get through that by going into meetings without the answer, which was totally new for them, totally had to undo sort of 30 years of how they'd always worked, which was to go into a meeting with exactly what they wanted the team to do, not seek feedback about how they would, together, come up with a solution. But of course, it completely changed the dynamic of that group.

I should mention, if I can, about the word to wisdom ratio you might have read about in the book. And this is a concept that I've found people really resonate with, and it's perfect for this sort of topic, because when I first started sitting on company boards about a decade or more ago, I was really young. So I was 38 on my first publicly listed company board, and I'm now 50.

And when I was then a young green director, I felt I needed to speak sort of at every single conversation. In every topic, I was just speaking for the sake of speaking and not really adding particularly much value at all. But I was noticing my really experienced colleagues around the boardroom table barely said anything at all. And in fact, the most experienced directors would only maybe say one sentence or ask one question. But that one question would completely influence the course of direction of the conversation.

So I coined then, and I still use it now, this word to wisdom ratio. And basically, my number of words that was taking me to add wisdom was pretty poor. It was taking me a hell of a lot of words, and I wasn't adding much wisdom at all, whereas theirs was obviously very healthy and I think I use it still now.

As the more senior you become, making sure you're not that leader dominating the space, because if you're in the room with your team and you're doing all the words and all the speaking and taking up all of that room, you're not leaving the space for anyone else to find a solution or to come up with a better solution or to coach them. This is our opportunity to be asking questions. Even if you know the answer, ask the question just to see. So I think the word to wisdom ratio, depending on wherever you sit in your career can be valuable.

Chris Dixon:

Could be a KPI for the quality of curiosity you bring to a meeting as well.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, exactly. Maybe AI in future, we have to measure what our word to wisdom ratio was.

Nikki Miller:

Well, I think it's so important because of what you said earlier, where this idea that when we're in that leadership position, we have to know everything and have all of the answers. And really, if you're coming into every single one of these meetings with a directive and a clear path forward, it's just your perspective, which candidly, as a leader is a lot of weight too, like you get to distribute the weight of this decision making if you can open yourself up to ask questions and get other people's perspectives. And you also might find something out that you didn't know before.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Shock horror, Nikki. Shock horror that you might actually learn something. I couldn't agree more. It's stressful being a leader. It's lonely enough at the top as it is. Why not share the load and bring people along with you who are going to have a different perspective, and who will most likely have a better answer than you can have. So I think there's nothing to lose.

The exception is situations where there's a crisis where really you need to be making quick, fast decisions and worry about everyone's feelings afterwards. They are rare though, few and far between. And I think I interviewed one of the police commissioners in my book, and she ended up being in the chapter on empathy. And I sort of flippantly said, oh, there's not much room for empathy when you're chasing someone down the street, trying to arrest them. And she made the valid point. That's like one percent of what policing is about. The rest of it is all about relationships and building trust with the community and things like that. So it's very, very rare as a leader that you should be acting in that unilateral way 99 percent of the time. We need teams around us.

Nikki Miller:

So in the book, you talk about this art of modern leadership is sort of marrying both the head and the heart. And you took us through the perspectives. But I want to hear from you how can you, especially in this world where so much of our interactions with people is remote, which I think adds a whole another layer of challenge that you don't sort of get the time at the water cooler. Everyone says that it's not good for productivity, but in a sense, it's actually great for community building, which I think can be really hard that you don't have that now. How do you marry both of these together. As a leader, how are you choosing when to bring which and how to interact with both in these situations?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

That is the million-dollar question. So while I can easily say, look, the art of modern leadership is knowing what's needed and when that's critical, that's the one thing. It is a one thing. Knowing how to do that is really hard. And a lot of it is trial and error. So the way I lead as a young junior leader in the military, a junior officer is very different to how I lead now. And that's because I've made zillions of mistakes and I've got all the scar tissue from having made those mistakes and being able to sort of understand through feedback and just how you feel about yourself in certain moments to know what's going to work. And we still get it wrong. But I think this art is being open to learning.

And so for new leaders who might be listening, don't be afraid to go and ask for advice from someone that you work with. It doesn't have to be your boss. It might be just another senior colleague and say, here's how I'm thinking of tackling it. What would you advise, and see how that fits with you. But if it doesn't feel right, go and speak to someone else. There's no issue with seeking advice as much as you can, because this is just a process of learning and we're forever learning. Sadly, you'll never be perfect at this, and that's fairly depressing. I wrote the book and I'm definitely not perfect, so there you go.

Nikki Miller:

Depressing, but comes with a bit of freedom too, that if you're never going to be perfect --.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

It's a lot of freedom.

Nikki Miller:

Yeah, you might as well not hold yourself to that impossible standard anyway.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Exactly.

Chris Dixon:

It's a moving target, too.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, exactly. And that's about reading the room, too, Chris. So what might have worked yesterday in your leadership and what you thought was needed and when won't be the right thing tomorrow. And even in one conversation, you think about conversations. You think of going to go one way. And then within ten minutes, the kind of the wheels have fallen off and you need some different skills and maybe a whole heap of humility to get through that. That is reading a room as well. So it is a moving target for sure.

Nikki Miller:

I also think it gives freedom to the people that we lead, right? As a leader, if you're always perfect and always know the answers, or project that because we know it's not real, then you impose that impossible standard on to everyone around you too, which I think lessens everyone's productivity.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

And it's tiring.

Nikki Miller:

Yeah, it's exhausting.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

I don't want to have to work like that with. But I remember earlier in my career, I'd put on a suit. I was working in a corporate law firm, and that was like your armor that you wore to sort of give this impression that you knew everything. And like, I was 30. I knew nothing, but I tried to give that impression because my bosses were leading that way. And it was like, you can't afford. And I was female in a male dominated, lots of different reasons that minorities and women, and we just need to drop it all and just be ourselves and be able to say, I don't know, I don't know how to do this, but I am confident I'm capable of learning. So tell me what I need to know so I can learn. And we're going to do this really well.

Nikki Miller:

Yeah, I'm confident I can figure it out.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah.

Nikki Miller:

I was just going to say at the end of every one of these podcasts, we always ask, what is the one thing, if our listeners were to take one thing from this conversation from you, what's the one thing that you would want them to take away from this conversation?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

I want them to remember they are a leader. I don't care what it says they do or what they've been told their entire life, or whether you've been told you're not the right kind of leader. None of that matters. You are a leader already, so make your legacy a good one.

Nikki Miller:

Oh, I love that. Make your legacy a good one. I feel like that needs to be on a shirt. If anyone wants to know where to find you, where should they go?

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson:

Well, if they go to headheartleader.com, they can do the scale or they can find me, kirstinferguson.com and you'll get lots of information. But going by the book, it's on Amazon.

Nikki Miller:

Thank you so much for being here with us today. We will see you all next time.

Outro:

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