Jay Papasan:
Hey, gang. Today’s episode could not come at a better time. We all just need a little inoculation of hope in a world that’s got lots of bad news. So, today, we have the award-winning behavioral psychologist, Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe, three-time bestselling author, to talk about our new book, I Hope So.
And we’re gonna unpack the nature of hope, how it’s different from optimism and some really simple practices, So, that we can build more hope into our daily lives, how business owners can find hope when things feel a little dark, and how we can hold hope for those around us, which may be the most important thing that we can do. Enjoy this episode with Dr. Robyne.
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Jay Papasan:
I’m Jay Papasan. And this is The ONE Thing, your weekly guide to the simple steps that lead to extraordinary results.
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Jay Papasan:
Dr. Robyne, welcome back to The ONE Thing podcast. I’m So, happy to have you back.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
I’m So, excited to be here, Jay. Thank you for inviting me back.
Jay Papasan:
So, your third book, I Hope So. Definitely, we’re listening to this and reading your book at a time where a lot of us need a little bit of hope.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah.
Jay Papasan:
Let’s first define it. You make a really strong case for there’s a big difference between hope and optimism. So, when you say hope, what should we hear?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
First of all, thank you for holding space for this conversation because the world does need more hope right now. And it feels like right now, it’s really hard to hold onto it or to find it. So, I love that we’re bringing this conversation forward.
And when we talk about hope, hope very much is, it’s a practice. It’s a state of being. And how it differentiates from optimism is, I believe, that optimism is really attached to an outcome, that I hope I get this job, close this deal, meet this partner, have this opportunity, or I’m like, it’s almost as if it’s like I really want that thing to happen in a particular way, and we call that optimism. When we think about what hope is, it’s a state of trusting that no matter what, that this is going to work out.
Jay Papasan:
So, even if we don’t get the outcome, it’s gonna be okay.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes, it’s trusting the process. It’s trusting that things work out] and unfold in a way that actually is going to allow us to experience what we’re meant to experience.
Jay Papasan:
Everybody describes hope as a feeling though. Like, I feel hopeful or I don’t feel hopeful. So, if you’ve got someone in your life that says, “You know, Robyne, I don’t feel hopeful right now,” where do you start with that then?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so interesting because yes, it is a feeling or a sensation but, ultimately, it is a state. So, if someone says to me, “Robyne, I don’t feel hopeful right now,” what I’m gonna say back to them, Jay, is “I believe you. I believe you that, right now,” ’cause I trust the feeling. Like I believe you when you say you don’t feel very hope-filled. And I’m gonna share back, “You know what? It makes sense. There’s not a lot of examples of hope around us. It almost feels safer not to get our hopes up right now than it would be to get our hopes up right now.”
So, I think, so often, when somebody shares a feeling, we’re quick to say, “Don’t feel that.” If somebody even says, “You know, I feel worried,” “Don’t feel worried.” If somebody’s upset and you say, “Settle down,” has that ever worked in the history of the world telling someone to settle down, to settle down? So-
Jay Papasan:
Especially not as a parent or a spouse.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
100%. A hundred percent. But when somebody tells me like, “I feel like this,” I say, “I believe you, and you don’t have to figure this out by yourself.”
Jay Papasan:
So, we’re validating and saying, “I’m here with you.”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Absolutely.
Jay Papasan:
Well, I love that, one, because it’s something we sometimes often just need to hear is that we’ve been heard-
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes.
Jay Papasan:
… and that someone can at least empathize with us. They’re not going straight into their… put on their white hat, jump on their horse to rescue us. That may not absolutely be why we’re saying it. You talked a lot, I don’t remember the doctor’s name, I love the definition or the framework in research around hope that it’s got kind of three components: Goals, pathways and agency.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah. Dr. Snyder, Charles Snyder.
Jay Papasan:
Walk us through that because when you say hope is a process, that’s where my brain goes. We’ve gotta have something we’re looking to do in the future, ways to get there and the belief that we can do it. So, kind of unpack that for us.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes. And again, this is Dr. Snyder’s work, which really helped us understand that role around agency, that we have to understand that it is that process. And one of the things we actually know – and this is beyond Snyder’s work, Jay, and I’ll circle back to your question in just a heartbeat – is that we actually know that hope, it actually outperforms mindfulness when people are going through a hard time. So, we actually know all of that research on mindfulness that says this is so good for our psychology, it’s so good for our physiology. We actually know that hope will outperform that when people are going through a hard time.
And why that is, it’s because they start to co-create all of these different possibilities of seeing a way through. So, we’re not getting stuck on the moment. We’re not getting stuck on the situation that we’re in. What we’re doing is thinking about what are some strategies, approaches, or tactics that we can use to walk ourselves through whatever this hard thing is. And the more practice or reps we get of problem solving, critically thinking about this, it actually increases our capacity to have what we call agency thinking or self-efficacy that I’m gonna be able to figure this out.
Jay Papasan:
Oh, I love that. Like I can go so many directions. Like, I think about, you write about this in the book, the movie Castaway, we wrote about it in our first book, The Millionaire Real Estate Agent, that the screenwriters, that one package he didn’t unpack and decorated, that was his hope.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
Like that was the job that was undone, and he was leaving it open because he believed someday he would get to finish that task.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
And so, hope, I mean so many survivor stories. I think Stockdale, like, really that was the Vietnam prisoner of war. I think that Dr. Jim Collins wrote about that story first. That’s where I first read it. He differentiated, like you do, between optimism. The optimistic people were like, “We’ll be saved by Christmas,” and they kept getting disappointed. He held onto hope-
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe: That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
… which was a different practice, the belief that he would make it free, but he wasn’t attaching it just emotionally to moments, and then going through those horrible ups and downs.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Absolutely. And we are able to persist and sustain when we lean into that belief, Jay, like you’re describing around that self-efficacy or that confidence that not that I have this outcome orientation, which says, “I will be released by Christmas,” or “I will have this happen by X date.” It’s trusting that I am well resourced to sustain however long I have to sustain because, ultimately, I will be released.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
And so, it was just showing up each day decision by decision; picking, again, the one thing that they were focusing on that allowed them to be able to persist. And Dr. Viktor Frankl wrote about that in his experience in the concentration camps of just that he couldn’t control so many of the variables, but the last remaining piece was his agency around his mindset or his perspective.
Jay Papasan:
How he responded to what was happening to him, he maintained control.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
I love that. I mean, that’s a book I’ve read maybe four times. And I’ll just throw it out there for our listeners, if you love Dr. Frankl’s book, also read The Happiest Man Alive, which is just one of the other great tales of maintaining hope and maintaining your control in really difficult circumstances. But I’m gonna backtrack ’cause you said something. I think that’s significant. We learn this self efficacy, say that three times fast, agency from our past.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
So, as we make progress through adversity, we are teaching ourselves that we can do it again. And when COVID hit, I got a chance to sit in on Angela Duckworth’s class at Penn. And one of the exercises that she would teach students is that she would ask them, think about a time where you were sure you were going to fail and yet, you succeeded anyway. And think of all the listeners right now, probably all of you listening just thought of a moment where you were in the darkest hour, but you made it through. And reminding ourselves that we have done it before and that we can do it again is building that muscle of self-efficacy. There, I said it right.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes, perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things we often talk about and one of the other practices, Jay, that I’ve done for years, and I love sharing this with folks ’cause it’s, I think, super easy but it helps illustrate the point you’re making, is that when I experience a setback or a disappointment, or I’m journaling and I’m journaling about it, what I always make sure to do is to leave three or four blank lines underneath that experience because one of the practices I love to do is each quarter, I go back and underneath, I write down like, “Because of this, this happened,” because that’s not the end of the story.
And I often think, a lot of times, people quit before they reach the end of the chapter, that’s meant for them. And often, when I’m working with athletes, I’m working with organizations, or even when I’m supporting people in a coaching capacity, the question is, “Can you just keep going just a little bit more than you think you can?” or trust the process just a wee bit deeper. That’s scary, it’s risky, it doesn’t feel good, but, just, could you challenge yourself just to stay in there just a wee bit longer because so often, it’s just on the other side.
And I love going back and filling in some of those disappointments, filling in some of those, what, at the time, felt like failures or setbacks and realizing, Jay, they’re set-ups for things that I didn’t even imagine were possible.
Jay Papasan:
I love that. You’re so clever. From not a setback, it’s a setup if we give it enough time and space to process it. That’s definitely a part of my practice. It’s something I made my keynote last year that you got to hear about how, with enough time and perspective, our darkest days often bring the best lessons. And just don’t tell me there’s a silver lining when I’m right in the middle of it. I need time and space. That’s kind of that toxic positivity that shows up sometimes and it just doesn’t serve us. You actually call out toxic positivity. Do you want to get on your soapbox for a second?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
I would love to. Yeah. And this is a wee bit. I have a beef with this because I think there’s this tendency that we just ignore and override in the sense of like, “No, no, everything is okay,” and we see these like glamorous social media reels and posts where people are really… you know, it’s all false in such a way that they’re doing it to try and project that everything is okay. And the reality is in those cases, so often than not, it’s not okay.
And there’s even research that shows, Jay, that couples, for example, who post all of these, like, “Oh, my partner did this for me,” like, “Look at this, look at this,” they actually have the lowest scores of relationship satisfaction when we actually look at it in research, right? So, there’s something to be said about trying to prove you’re happy versus genuinely being happy or what we really strive for is feeling content. And when we’re in a place of content, we don’t need all of the rainbows and the sparkles and the uniform and pretend everything is okay because we know even on days where it’s not okay, it’s gonna be okay.
Jay Papasan:
I love that. What’s the Shakespeare line? He death protests too much.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Exactly.
Jay Papasan:
Right? Well, I’m gonna go with this. Like, we serve a lot of business owners. I know you do in your practice and you go into a lot of businesses. A lot of business owners have to put a brave face on it, or they believe they do when things are tough. What advice would you give them, so that they’re not falling prey to the trap of having to prove that things are okay when, actually, they’re scoring poorly? How do you balance the need to reassure your team but also be real?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes. And I think you just described it in the sense that we want to be honest because we actually know part of being hope-filled is that we want to create environments where there is honesty and transparency, that we actually can recognize that, “You know what? Yes, this is difficult,” or “We’re going through a difficult season, a difficult quarter, and there’s a reasoned approach in how we are going to address it.”
So, again, this isn’t just fake it till we make it or let’s just pretend it’s okay. Meanwhile, the waves are coming over the front of the boat. It’s reminding the people in that boat, “Yeah, waves are coming over the front of it and we know how to swim and we know what we are doing.” And a calm, trustworthy leader will make all of the difference.
And the other piece is people prefer to be told the truth, even if it’s heavy, dark, and scary than to be misled because that misled leads to that mistrust, which decreases agency. And then all of a sudden, folks are going to start creating a narrative, Jay, that is probably way worse than the reality of what we’re navigating.
The other piece, too, about difficult conversations, just to hold space for that for a moment, my invitation there is just get to the point. I don’t think there’s anything more unhelpful than when you’re having a difficult conversation and it’s asking you, “How are you? How are the family? How are the kids? Did you check out the Michigan game night?” And then say, “Oh, by the way, we’re gonna let you go.” Please, please, please don’t do that to people. Like, let people just be treated like grownups who can handle the hard. And we’re not protecting them. If anything, we’re setting them up for having a more difficult experience processing it.
Jay Papasan:
I got great advice the first time I had to let somebody go for cause. And the woman’s name was Julie. She was our chief counsel at the time. And she said, “Jay,” just exactly what you said, “don’t beat around the bush. Don’t make it like when you broke up with your high school girlfriend, and they thought you were about to propose and be like, ‘ I really like you and I love spending time with you.'” You’re actually just making it worse. So, she said the first thing out of your lips is, “The reason I called you in today is because we have to part ways.”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes.
Jay Papasan:
You’ve started at the end. And now, everything is why and unwinding. But you’ve also done them in kindness because they’re not sitting on pins and needles, not exactly knowing where they are. I love that.
Well, let’s go to a quick break. And then, on the other side, let’s pick up on your four hope blocks, which is kind of, I think, the big payoff in the book, which gives us a real foundation for your theory of hope
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Jay Papasan:
Welcome back, everybody. In the first half, we kind of unpacked the difference between hope and optimism. We dove down some of the pathways that Dr. Snyder taught us. In I Hope So, you also kind of put out there your own philosophical kind of breakdown of the four building blocks of hope. Can you walk us through those really quickly ’cause you said environment in the first half and I was like, “Wait, that’s the first building block, if I’m not mistaken.”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Absolutely. And we talk about that as like hopeful havens, right? Spaces where we’re able to have that safety, where we’re able to get our hopes up. And I appreciate a lot of the nature of our jobs, especially as high performers, as I said before the break is hustle, do, achieve, it’s competitive. Like those are all survival vibes, right? And some of us, we love that energy and it feels really great. It’s not sustainable all the time.
So, having spaces, and places, and people where we’re able to go to get just that wee bit of a decompression, that place of safety, that softness, that security. And that doesn’t make us weak, it allows us to have certain components of our psychology and physiology addressed, so it can recharge, regroup, and then get back into the play.
Jay Papasan:
You’re not living in, like, total cortisol immersion all the time. A lot of people use deadlines or they’ll put off doing the work until the last minute, and then try to do a marathon in a day. And that’s that kind of hero mode where they get to be the great doer they are, but it can be really unhealthy in the long term.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
What we see in that particular piece is it probably serves us well for particular seasons of our life. When you are first getting started, being fueled by adrenaline at a good time is really useful for a particular season, but that’s not necessarily sustainable if you wanna play the long game because what we know often is the cost of driving like that is gonna be relationships in your wellbeing. So, it’s gonna come at a pretty big cost. You can get away with it for a wee while to build a certain degree of agency and currency and experience, but you wanna make sure that you have another strategy if you wanna stay in the long game.
Jay Papasan:
So, if I am a top performer or a business owner, how do I create a hope haven at my workplace?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
I love this question. So, again, it doesn’t have to be… as Hunter would say, it’s not that deep. Mom, it’s not that deep, which is one of Hunter’s favorite when I’m totally in my… and I’m in a bit of a tizzy, and he’ll interject and be like, “Hey, mom, honestly, it’s not that deep.”
So, what could a hopeful haven look like? Literally, having a trusted ally. Having somebody in that space where you know that if you’re kind of operating under the line, that they’re gonna be like, “Well, Jay, you know what? I’m gonna take this for here.” And they never correct in public, that you always correct in private, and you coach in private. But what they’ll do is make sure that you don’t go too far down a path that you shouldn’t be going down. So, having those trusted allies around us makes a huge difference. That will give us a sense of safety.
And what we talk about here is that there’s really no such thing as safe spaces. It’s safe people. It’s people that you could be around to say like, “Hey, you know what? I’m feeling a bit like I’m operating below the line. Could you take this call?” or “Are you good if I just take five minutes, run outside, catch my breath, regroup, recalibrate, and then I’m gonna be able to show up wholehearted when I get back in?” So, it’s just having… and again, that ties into the other block, which is having these habits.
Jay Papasan:
You brought up and evoked, like, you know, I learned to love books from The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. That’s like my origin story. So, you even call out Samwise Gamgee. Like we all need someone who holds hope for us. And I guarantee you that people listening to this are thinking about their workplace and they know who that person is for them. And I wonder if that person knows that that’s the person for them.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Wow, Jay, that’s really special, right?
Jay Papasan:
Well, what an opportunity just to share with someone. It’s like, you know, I’ve seen all kinds of research. The reason people leave organizations and even churches is not because of dissatisfaction with the system. Often, it’s because they don’t have a best friend there. So, those close relationships, those are the people that maybe we can call ’em at 3 am or maybe they just knock on our door or come by our cubicle when they know we’re having a bad day and they just check in on us. Knowing that they’re there is really valuable. So, if you’re that person out there, never underestimate the gifts you’re giving the people you work with.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah. Oh, Jay, that’s so beautifully said. And it reminds me of that idea of being aware of who checks in on you, especially as a leader, a founder and owner, who checks on you when you’re quiet, right? Those are those people that, you know, being mindful of who… You know, there’s a lot of people asking us for things, asking us for help, ideas. “Hey, Jay, can I just have a minute of your time?” Oo, “Hey Jay, can you make this introduction?” or “Hey, Jay,” or to whatever. Who’s checking in on you when you’re quiet? Who’s not asking you of anything? Like those are the ones that we really wanna hold close and really celebrate. And I love how you’re inviting people to reach out and let them know the role they have ’cause it’s important.
Jay Papasan:
It’ll be a little weird when someone gets a text to be like, “Robyne, you’re my Samwise.” They’ll be like, “What?”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
I’d be so honored.
Jay Papasan:
There we go. There we go. So you are gonna go, the first one is, kind of, hope havens. The next one is hope habits. What are some habits ’cause we love habits at The ONE Thing. We know that-
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Absolutely.
Jay Papasan:
… you work for the habit and then the habit works for you.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Totally. Okay. So, Jay, my big idea around habits, and I love being able to share this, and I’m excited to share it with your group, is this idea that bad habits or what we would say habits that get us farther away from our goals, they are so good because they work on a bad day, right? So, if you think about our bad habits that we have, we all have them, we have tendencies or practices we do, the reason why they are so useful is because they work on a bad day.
And I think a lot of times, when we try to create habits that get us closer to our goal, they only work on optimal days where everything is working out, everything is working in a positive direction. And then, all of a sudden, it’s like, yeah, it’s easy to go to the gym when I’ve had a good night’s sleep. It’s easy to journal when I have a bit of spaciousness in my day. Like it’s easy to do those things, but the question is, can you still get out for that walk even when you haven’t had a good night’s sleep, even when you’ve been up all night worried about something. And we hit that. It’s not really feast and famine anymore. It’s that feast and panic, where that hits us at 3:00 AM. It’s like, can you still do the things that you know that are gonna help you feel better, keep you operating above the line on bad days? Because if you’re able to do the habits on bad days, you know you have a good habits.
Jay Papasan:
Well, I love that because I mean, one, it’s just truth spoken. I was going to, when you said the bad habits serve us on a bad day, are you talking about that glass of wine and half a chocolate bar? I’m self-soothing here at the end of a bad day. But where I go with that and where, a lot of times, in our coaching and teaching is people say, “Yeah, I need to exercise. I need to hit the gym for an hour every day.” What’s the smallest thing that you could do? I’m going back to Dr. BJ Fogg, who I evoke all the time. Like, floss one tooth. Yeah. What’s the smallest increment that would be meaningful? And I know you’ve even done some research around this. Like what are some really small practices that work on a bad day that we maybe could share a couple of examples for people.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah, I love that. And I talk about this idea about thinking about ’em as non-negotiables. So, I don’t have to decide whether or not I want to or I don’t want to. It’s literally that I am going to make sure “I wake, water, and walk” to quote my friend Dr. Greg. It’s like no matter what I feel, it’s not a choice, in the sense of it’s just this is what I do. It becomes part of my identity. I’m somebody who, I wake up, I go outside, and even if it’s just a matter of going out on my front porch or on my patio or on my balcony or whatever that looks like, it’s just I get daylight first thing in the morning.
Because one of the things that we know is that all of these behaviors have a compound effect. So, if I get people to just breathe, just do a wee bit of breathing and breath work in the morning, we know they’re more likely to drink water. People who are more likely to drink water are more likely to walk. People who are more likely…
So, again, it’s this amazing gateway behavior that… what often happens though, Jay, is folks start at the extreme where they’re like, “I’m signing up. I’m gonna do CrossFit and I’m gonna do this thing, and I’m gonna get all the memberships and all that.” They start at the end where it’s like, no, no, start on this side.
And the reality is you can sustain life for a very long time with breath, right? You can miss the gym and still stay alive. The consequences of missing the gym won’t hit you for years. The consequences of not breathing that’s gonna hit you in – well, unless you’re Kate Winslet – under seven minutes.
Jay Papasan:
Well, Coach Jordan, who works with us, he pointed out to me like when we were trying to figure out, how do we prioritize some of these health rituals, he goes, “Jay, how long can you go without exercise?” I was like, “Like serious exercise?” He goes, “Yeah.” It’s like, “I mean, like maybe months and years.”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Of course.
Jay Papasan:
“Well, what about food?” Well, that could be definitely… like you hear hunger strikes that go on for 60, 90 days. And it’s like, “What about water?” And I was like, “Well, now, we’re really getting short.”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah.
Jay Papasan:
Yeah, just a few days. And he goes, “What about breath?” And I was like, “Well, on the outside, maybe three to six minutes.” He goes, “So, then, where should you start?”
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Exactly.
Jay Papasan:
And I was like, “Oh, you coach, stop coaching me.” But I did a whole podcast on rituals of recovery. How do we quickly do little things? Like a batter that steps outta the box after a bad swing, they just do the ritual adjustment of the gloves. And box breathing has been my technique this year. It takes less than a minute. I can do it anywhere and it just completely reset your nervous system. You also know that I love to do a short, sometimes five to 10 minute walk outside. So, everything that you’re saying, I will just personally testify, this stuff works. You can do a complete reset in less than a minute or as little as 10 minutes of just walking around your house outside just to get the sunshine and fresh air and move your body. Those things add up to a lot more than people give them credit for.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
You’re absolutely right. I appreciate that share. And also, we talk about this in terms of the power of contrast that if we’re on this particular frequency and most of us are operating in beta brainwaves, which is that hustle, do, perform, achieve, that’s a particular brainwave activated. If we shift in any capacity, have that contrast, it’s gonna give us a restorative effect. We’re gonna feel this beautiful sense of just ease, pause, allow us to regroup.
So, if you’ve been sitting for a long time, it’s standing. If you’ve been standing for a long time, it is sitting. If you’ve been indoors, it’s that idea of the opposite effect. So, if you’ve been talking a lot, it’s listening. It’s the opposite piece. So, when people say, “Where do I start?” I ask them, “What does the majority of your time look like? And how can we, in that majority of the time, just increase just a wee bit of the opposite effect?” And those practices, we know, are sustainable even on bad days.
Jay Papasan:
I love it. Just to interrupt the pattern.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
We’ve got environment or havens, habits. What’s number three? I wrote down work but I bet you’ve got a better… like something that rhymes.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
We talked about this idea of hope-centered work, that we can pretty much do anything as long as the why is strong enough. And the gentle invitation with that hope-centered work in the why is, I think there was this kind of misconception that we needed one why. Like this is like the ultimate.
Jay Papasan:
The big why.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
The big why. But my invitation is, Jay, we need a bag of whys. Like we need a whole little fanny pack of wise because, sometimes, the why is literally just because I have to get through the day. It isn’t altruistic, it isn’t bigger, broader. It’s literally just, I need this in this moment and I’m gonna do it because I said I would. And that’s enough. So, having that hope-centered work, knowing the reason why we are doing this.
And one of the things, and I believe it was Rory Vaden who said that, like enjoyment isn’t a requirement for doing it. So, some things we just do because they have to get finished. And so, that still connects to hope-centered work, where what we’re ultimately working for is that thing of contribution, that place where we are in alignment with who we are, what we are about. And again, the work, it’s so beautiful in the description of it because that could be that single parent who has multiple jobs, and they’re able to support their family in that particular way. And it doesn’t matter if it’s like, you know, “I’m not saving baby dolphins, Robyne,” or “I’m not curing cancer.” It’s like, “No, but you’re, you’re taking care of your family.” As long as you are in a position where you are protecting or providing, that’s the key to resiliency. We will show up. As long as you are in a position that you have somebody to protect, protect, or to provide for, we will figure it out.
Jay Papasan:
Okay. You’ve just queued one of my favorite stories. It’s probably like the mic drop moment of the book, if I’m honest. You tell the Life Vest story. And I wrote in the margins, like “We will do for others what we won’t do for ourselves.” And that idea of maybe the why is I’m gonna complete my CTB form, like some paperwork that you don’t wanna do just because it’ll make Andrea’s job easier. That’s like a tiny, tiny why. Will you please just share the Life Vest story?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes. I remember… Oh, Jay, I love that that stood out for you. I remember working with, basically, a sea captain, and he had just come back from doing a notification of losing one of his seamen. And they had died in his watch, and he just, just didn’t understand why he was struggling with compliance for people wearing their life vests on the vessel. Like he just didn’t understand because he had been there telling people, you know, “I’m delivering this message to your next of kin. And like this could have been prevented if you were following the rules, which was you have to wear your life vest when you’re on the deck.”
And so, he introduced this protocol, Jay, where he had his members, people in his charge, he gave them a sharpie marker, and he asked them to write the names of their loved ones on the life vest. And he said, “I want you to know why you are wearing this.” And so, all these members were taking the sharpie and writing their names. And this one young gentleman said to the captain, “I don’t have a next of kin. I’m on my own.” And he said to that… again, you have to understand, he’s a gruff. He’s rough around the edges, this big burly man, and he’s like, “Yeah, but you got a dog, and I’m pretty sure your dog is gonna wanna be fed tonight.” And he said, “Well, there you go.” So, that young sailor wrote his dog’s name on his vest because it matters.
Jay Papasan:
Oh, I love that. So, it doesn’t have to be a big why. We want a whole bag of them. And it’s best if we can connect it with someone that matters.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
That’s right.
Jay Papasan:
That we don’t wanna let down. We don’t wanna disappoint. Love that. Well there’s a fourth building block if I didn’t miscount. So, we’ve got havens, habits, work with meaning. What’s the last one?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
We talk about this as the hope-guided self. And what I mean by that is that, ultimately, hope comes down, Jay, to being a choice that we need to choose to be hope-filled. We need to choose to see it, to share it, to look for it, to be open to it because we do know it changes us physiologically, psychologically, and even spiritually when we are able to be in a place where we are trusting that there is good out there.
And I can share with you just a quick little antidote that happened recently. I was coming out of a late night flight flying across the country, and a gentleman got on the plane. And he sat down in the seat. I was on the row, the end aisle, and he was on the other side. And he sat down. And I’ll tell you, Jay, he looked so dapper. He was such a distinguished gentleman. He was wearing a three piece suit on this red eye flight, which seemed kind of peculiar.
And there was this older woman next to him, and she wasn’t traveling with him, just an older bird. And I loved it because she was like, “Oh, don’t you look good, sir.” So, I was like, “Damn, you’re shooting your shot, sister.” Like I was just watching this unfold ’cause I thought, yes, this older gentleman looks so dapper. And she said, “You know, where are you going? What are you doing?” And he said, “I’m flying to Toronto to meet my daughter and I’ll be meeting my granddaughter for the first time, and I wanted to dress for the occasion.”
Jay Papasan:
That’s great.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
And oh, Jay, I’m bawling, right? So, I’m eavesdropping on this conversation. I’m bawling, and as soon as I landed, I called my people and I’d be like, “I have to tell you the sweetest thing that I just saw.” And that’s the part that I think is missing is that we are exposed to these moments. They’re all around if we’re paying attention. And we’re so quick to share bad news. We’re so quick to share the scary stuff or that click bait or those headlines. We talk about that so easily. We also could do the same about these hope-filled moments where we see this gentleman, his three-piece suit, we see this older bird taking her shot, shooting her shot, like all of this is around us, and it’s just choosing to keep paying it forward and letting people hear the good side, hear the bright side, or hear these light moments or these little hope-filled moments that make everything just feel better.
Jay Papasan:
There’s that saying that bad news gets all the way around the world before good news has its shoe laces tied or something.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yes. Yeah, you’re right.
Jay Papasan:
I can’t remember who said it. It’s probably Mark Twain or something. But it’s true, right? I do think that if we want to be people who bring hope to the world, it takes a little bit of effort. You have to focus on it. You have to choose to be someone who’s gonna see the hope and share the hope. And that does make a difference. Like when you share these stories just here on this podcast, I’m sure people just listening are feeling more hopeful. And I know they will after reading your book ’cause you just tell story after story after story around hope.
So, we’re getting to the end of our time. As always, I feel like I could talk to you for like seven hours and we could just do a full on like Joe Rogan podcast that takes up the whole week to listen but that’s not the nature of this one. In terms of a challenge for our listeners, where could they start maybe this week? What’s a small challenge we can give them around hope?
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Yeah. Jay, I’m, I’m So, excited to share this. One of the practices that I would love our listeners to try is when you have a moment to check in with someone and to ask them, what are you hoping for right now? What are you hoping for right now? And give them a minute because we’re not really primed or used to answering that question or sharing what we’re hoping for. But I wholeheartedly believe, Jay, everyone is hoping for something. Maybe you’re hoping for a clean bill of health, or you’re hoping your kid gets into school, or you’re hoping for a breakthrough in your business. Like everyone is hoping for something, but it’s really scary to share it, but I think we need to be heroically hope-filled and say, “I’m hoping that I’m gonna be able to get X amount of talks this year,” or “I’m hoping I can close this amount of deals.” So, ask somebody what they’re hoping for. And then, the follow up question is, “May I hope with you for that?”
Jay Papasan:
I love that.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
And just feel energetically what it feels like. So, if it’s okay, Jay, can I ask you, I know the challenge is for your listeners, but like Jay, what’s something you’re hoping for right now?
Jay Papasan:
Well, God, this is a long one to unpack. On Friday, I’m gonna go to Japan for two weeks, and I’m hiking for eight days with three new friends. And I’m hopeful that at the end of that hike that we’ll call it the friendship walk and we’ll be best friends.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
And may I hold with you for that?
Jay Papasan:
Absolutely.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Jay Papasan:
I love that. Robyne, thank you so much, as always, for pouring into us. I just can’t wait. This is your third book. I’ll look forward to the fourth and just wait for it. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
Dr. Robyne Hanley Dafoe:
Thanks for having me, Jay.
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